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We use Frontline all three of the dogs in my house and have never seen a flea on any of them.

I had the same problem you did, my handsome puggle, Sammy had gotten fleas, which the infested my apt. I now use frontline plus and I have nomore flea problems.

My dog is social, he goes to the dog beach and dog park often, so, for us Frontline is the best solution to keep fleas away.

Since you're in charge of the green section of AT, you should be aware that a bunch of us crazies are now adopting a more natural way of rearing our pets. This means: species-appropriate food, no vaccinations, no topical treatments that are basically chemical poisons, and for some of us, treating problems with classical homeopathy.

Also, if you're diligent about it, you can use food grade diatomaceous earth to get rid of fleas. DE works mechanically - it cuts up and dries out the exoskeleton of insects so they die that way. There is no chemical component to the killing method, so there is no cell mutation that makes the bugs more resistant to chemical treatment (it's been known to happen). You dust your house with it - bedding included if need be - and leave it down for 2 days, then vacuum up. Do this religiously for a few weeks to make sure you're also getting the eggs. It's a lot safer than bombing the house.

FYI, species appropriate means raw prey - or in my case, a bunch of various body parts from a variety of animals that a wolf may eat in the wild. Dogs are carnivores. They don't need grains nor veggies.

FWIW, I stopped using all topicals for two years now, been feeding my Belgian Malinois raw prey model diet for over a year, no longer am planning to vaccinate ever. She's healthier than I've ever seen her, and she doesn't have any flea or tick problem. I mist her with a water/lavender oil mixture if we're out for a longer time. I'm typically out in our local off leash parks with her for at least 2 hours a day, and longer on the weekend.

Thanks, summerinbrooklyn.

Does anyone have any tips/leads to natural flea protection and cats? I know cats can't metabolize a large % of essential oils so those are usually out.

I am hesitant to use DE on surfaces my cats will walk on and then groom their paw pads.

I also feed raw (rabbit/hare-today.com) for my cats.

DE will be fine for your cats, jesse. Its so harmless. If they ingest some of it, its completely harmless to their insides, and DE will only kill parasites in their gut. Check it out, they even recommend humans eating DE for getting rid of intestinal parasites.

I am a firm believer in least toxic pest control, but that Sentry product sounds like snake oil. Those oils might have a slightly repellant effect on a pet that isn't already infested with fleas, but isn't going to get rid of a real flea problem.

Frankly, were it me (and it were, about 14 years ago when I adopted my then-kitten George), here's what I'd do:

- give the pet a bath. Have a flea comb and a little bowl or wide-mouthed bottle with some rubbing alcohol nearby. As you dunk your pet, the fleas are going to run up towards its head. Pick and comb them off and drop them in the alcohol to kill them. You might have to do this once to twice a week while you deal with the infestation, so be sure the shampoo is gentle. It's very helpful if two people are present for this: one to hold the pet in the water, and one to do the combing.

- Vacuum DAILY, including upholstry.

- DE is a great idea if you're determined to go the least toxic route. You might also want to send out slipcovers and rugs for cleaning or laundering, and try to be sure any closets or other storage areas are inaccessable to the adorable mutt.

- If you really want to avoid bombing the place, however, and not be dealing with fleas pretty much forever, you'll have to start the pet on Frontline or similar, to disrupt the flea breeding cycle. I had my cat on one of those products that you mix with his food, for years, and he is a hale and hearty 14 year old today.

Good luck!

summerinbrooklyn, please tell me where you dog goes to socialize with other dogs. I DO NOT want an unvaccinated animal near my dog. This is the craziest thing I have seen on here. Having an unvaccinated urban dog is about as irresponsible as dog owner can become!

i believe in preventative care for my dogs and i see things like heartguard and advantage as just that. fleas aren't merely a pest to you, they cause your dog distress (great distress if your dog is allergic to their saliva) and can carry disease. i love my dogs like children and would never risk their well-being on my efforts to live a greener life.

if anyone's looking for a greener method to flea eradication, i would talk to your vet first before trying anything. and if you don't have a relationship with a good vet first, then i would seek that out above all else, because that is truly one of the best things you could ever do for your pet.

I agree with nattles. This is one area where efficacy trumps green, imho. The last time I had to use Advantage was ten years ago and it worked brilliantly. No fleas since then.

My ex used was a proponent of the all natural approach to pet care -- homeopathic remedies, raw food, diatomaceous earth for flea control, etc. and his poor dogs were miserable. I think in the long run, a moderate use of certain products that work would have vastly improved their quality of life.

The only time I wouldn't vaccinate is if the animal is elderly and in no contact with other animals at all.

Mason, there's lots of evidence that vaccinations in dogs supposedly last longer than the current 3 yr protocol. I did vaccinate her earlier when I didn't know any better. But please understand that vaccinating your dog doesn't mean you are protected. Lots of vaccinated puppies still contract parvo. BTW, there was a strain of kennel cough going around Brooklyn lately, and my dog is one of the only dogs who didn't come down with it. I actually find myself more responsible as a pet owner because I'm trying to minimize the risk of autoimmune disease. Besides, your dog is vaccinated right? So isn't he/she protected from the very diseases you vaccinated against? Sheesh.

Also, the chances of a dog coming into contact with a rabid animal in a city area is highly unlikely. Please look up auto immune disease. Please do your research on how vaccinations "work" before you condemn the rest of us who are afraid of them.

Problem is, you're counting on everyone else's pet vaccinations to keep your unvaccinated dog healthy by preventing the spread of common diseases.

Raccoons, skunks, and squirrels all live in cities and can all carry rabies, by the way.

Actually, I'm counting on the fact that I'm building up my dog's immune system to fight off pathogens and diseases. And I DID vaccinate her earlier and according to NYS law, she's still "up to date". I just choose not to vaccinate her ever again. How many of us go to get vaccinated against TB and Polio on a yearly basis? Why is it for human protocol, it's not advisable to get vaccinated on a more regular basis, but we make our pets go through it? I actually make it a point to AVOID dogs who have been recently vaccinated when we have playgroups. These dogs are shedding the viruses. And I reiterate, tons of dogs I know who have the bordatella vax just came down with kennel cough in Brooklyn. My dog didn't.

Also, I am a client of a great classical homeopathy practitioner, and know some of her other clients who have fought off things like parvo through homeopathic treatment. I CAN be done. I just feel it's worth it to allow my dog to develop a strong immune system that will equip her with the ability to fight off pathogens - it's what the immune system is designed for. And really, the threats of auto immune disease through overvaccinating, poor diet, regular onslaught of chemical topicals - those threats are very very real. If dogs get cancer, very often it's not just his genetic predisposition to the disease. It's the fact that cancer is the result of the immune system breaking down.

If you have scientific proof that homeopathy works, I'd like to see it.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

And I have to say, that summerinbrooklyn's argument reminds me of anti-vax parents in boulder, colorado. From what I've read, whooping cough is apparently endemic there because so many kids aren't vaccinated.

How many of us go to get vaccinated against TB and Polio on a yearly basis? Why is it for human protocol, it's not advisable to get vaccinated on a more regular basis, but we make our pets go through it?

Well, let's see. Adults aren't vaccinated for polio annually because the vaccine is given in childhood and the effect is life-long, so there's no need to re-vaccinate. That's true for many human vaccines -- the effect simply doesn't wear off. I can't find TB on the U.S. or U.K. vaccination schedules at all. That, along with the way it's tested for if you're going to be teaching, leads me to think there is no TB vaccine -- which would make it difficult to be vaccinated annually!

Pets are vaccinated for different diseases than humans, and the whole battery of vaccines isn't given annually anyway.

I'd find your argument more convincing if it were based on accurate facts. But that's just me.

wende in phoenix there is a vaccine for TB (BCG) it is not offered in the US. It was developed in France and is used in other parts of the world, Jamaica, WI for example. It does not necessarily give life long protection. I agree the argument for not vaccinating pets does not hold water. If exposure to pathogens strengthens the immune system (which is true to some extent) does that mean a woman should have multiple sex partners and not get the vaccine for HPV?

Ah -- okay, TB vaccine in the developing world makes total sense. I was vaguely wondering why there wouldn't be one, but not seriously enough to explore it. Thanks, Mason.

Something the anti-vaccine crowd forgets is that, before there were vaccines, everyone's immune system got lots of exposure to pathogens, and people died in large numbers from diseases we now vaccinate against. So a strong immune system is not a solution in itself.

wende that will be verified by almost any one you ask in the American Indian community.

An Italian study from the Istituto Zooprofilattico Sperimentale delle Venezie at the Viale dell'Universita, published in Sept 02 found evidence of fibrosarcomas at sites of injections. A study done by MJ Hendrick published in J. AM. Vet. Med. Assoc. (99, 968) found that fibrosarcomas found at injection sites in young cats were more aggressive, more recurrent, and occured in cats at a younger age than fibrosarcomas found in non-injection sites.

I have also done some research in adjuvants in vaccinations, and find the practice of using modified live viruses unnerving. Dr Jean Dodds who is basically responsible for changing the yearly vaccination protocol to a three year protocol has been studying adverse reactions to vaccinations for some time now. She is currently involved in attempting to fund a study to shift the current protocol to a 7-yr. She has written a research paper outlining the ties between vaccinations and auto-immune dysfunction. Her current stance is to advise minimal vaccinations, and also later vaccinations in puppyhood. Her lab Hemopet can be contacted for information.

As early as 1971, a group of scientists in University of Geneva discovered that biological substances injected directly into the bloodstream can be transfered to the genetic structure of the host. In 77, the International Review of Cytology, vol 51, published a discussion that foreign DNA can cause malignant cell transformations.

The International Vet Information Service site ivis.org also has a paper suggesting the occurence of post-vaccinal canine distemper encephalitis esp in those below 6 mths of age.

There is a lot of information out there. I have to dig around, but it's out there. It's enough to make me question current protocols. That's all I'm saying.

True health (and a kick ass immune system) comes from not exposure to pathogens (though that can help to train the system) bbut from good nutrition, minimal to no exposure to poisons, low stress and comfortable surroundings.

summerinbrooklyn - do you spay and neuter your pets?

there are many arguments for many ways of living - i do, however, think it irresponsible to not vaccinate your dogs if you live in an urban area. in birmingham - the southside where i live - there are more strays in the area than there are domesticated pets - which means more animals carrying more diseases than i want to expose my pets to - and because my dogs use the potty outside, i get them vaccinated. do you think rabies shots are futile, as well?

i just adopted two pitbull mutts who had worms so badly their stomachs were more than twice the size they should be normally because this a**hole didn't take them to the vet on time to get vaccinations and deworming (although he said he would, but that's a different story) - their feces for 2 days was all roundworms. it is true that having fleas does not guarantee that your pet will get worms, but it makes them a hell of a lot more likely to get them - i would think that any self respecting pet owner would do their pets enough justice to protect them from this.

it's true that not all vaccines can 100% protect a pet from disease - i think we all know that there are different strains of different diseases, but still, there is no reason not to do what you can to protect these animals from harm

if this were a baby, would you get their shots? i should hope so, because no school will allow a child without the proper vaccines, and rightfully so, because it's protecting the many against the one.

by the way, the guy we got the puppies from did not spay and neuter his dogs because he thought it "inhumane" to do so.

it may not be "natural" to give dogs shots and that you should feed them raw food - but remember, they are not in their "natural" habitats.

She was spayed as a puppy yes. I would still spay/neuter, but if I had my choice, I would not have done it so early in life. Vaccinations are administered subcutaneously, bypassing the natural mucus layer that serves as barrier number 1 in disease prevention. It's a hell of a barrage against the immune system, especially if it's one of those 3-1 vacccines.

It's not a decision I take lightly. Please don't think that. I used to be an advocate for vaccinations. But the more I learn about it, the more I realize most of them are just not necessary. That they will do more harm than good, within my situation.

Some of us just think of disease in a different way - that there is no individual ailments - it's all just the language by which your body indicates to you that there is an imbalance.

i got a kitten a few weeks ago, who was infested with fleas. She then passed those fleas to my other cat and 2 dogs. At least a hundred bucks in "natural" and synthetic flea control did nothing, I finally ponied up and bought them Advantix.


12 hours after applying the Advantix to the kitten, she was sitting on my bed and HUNDREDS of fleas fell off her in just a few minutes. my bed was covered in flea carcasses. Disgusting, but FINALLY(!) my animals and I are flea free.

When we first got the kitten, she was very moody. She bat our faces and hiss. I was even thinking about giving her away her mood was so horrible. Now with no fleas, she purrs constantly and loves to be pet and held - Complete personality change. No more hairballs and vomiting from constant grooming, too. Advantix is a life saver.

summerinbrooklyn thanks for sharing your research results. It does give one pause to think about these decisions more carefully. I hope your dog (and mine) live to be 'old ladies'.

summerinbrooklyn - glad to know you are not taking it lightly. i think a lot gets lost in translation in postings, considering you can't hear tones of voice. i apologize for getting a little carried away - my current situation with these two pups is heartbreaking and it's only been since Saturday since we've had them, so it's still really fresh. it is right to question these things, and you seem to be very informed about it (i missed your post with the research results, again, i got a little carried away). it really makes me think about the dude we got our babies from - he's this self-proclaimed hippy/buddhist-that-kills-things who is on his dog's third litter and force weened the puppies by putting frontline on the mama. these babies were sleeping and eating in their own filth and were never given baths or adequately fed - the vet could tell this before i even said anything to him.

i do also think a lot of concern could go into how you know which vet is trustworthy we had a battered dog end up on our front porch (i named her honey because she looks like the honey that comes in bears - except black - sweet baby) and my sister (who, bless her heart, does not have the best judgement) took her to a vet and they botched the job. so she would bleed every once in a while because there was stray ovarian tissue left in her - the surgery to make her better was, i think, at least twice the price of spaying. luckily, i have old highschool buddies, that are now both going into vet school, who work there and i know the vet very well.

like i said, there are many arguments for different lifestyles and a la mason, i hope all our dogs live to be "old farts."

oh - btw - we didn't see through his smoke and mirrors until last friday night - got them out of there the next day.

It really suprises me to see such venemous responses to Summer's obviously educated posts on holistic care for your pet.

You all know you're on a green forum, right?

To the poster worried about their cat injesting DE.... FOOD GRADE DE is just that, perfectly acceptable to eat. Some even feed it to their pets on a regular basis. There is another kind that is chemically treated and used in pools, this is NOT what you want to use for pest control.

To the countless others who berated Summer for not overvaccinating her pets, SHAME ON YOU! Shame on you for taxing your poor dog's immune system with countless NEEDLESS injections of vaccines that will make NO difference in your dog's health. Most canine vaccines have a life of 7 to 15 years, repeatedly injecting this harmful substance into your dog will not make it more immune, but it will lead to health conditions such as thyroid problems, epilepsy, cancer, allergies and behavioral problems. It's called ''vaccinosis'', and some of you really should take some time to look it up.

Frankly, *I* think it is irresponsible to subject your dog or cat to potentially life threatening, or at the least life altering, treatments because you can't be bothered to do some research. Did any of you dissenters even bother to read the information she posted??? My guess is you passed it over as scientific mumbo-jumbo and decided to criticize her anyway.

The fact of the matter is, people like summer who put some actual effort into the care of their pets are going to have them around for a long healthy life. My dogs are 4 and 5 years old, don't get vaccinations (none since puppy shots, except for rabies as required by law), don't get flea and tick meds, and eat a raw meat diet. We've never had a flea, never had HW or any other worm, ticks are removed by hand if necessary after every walk. According to you guys, my dogs should be crawling with all sorts of stuff....{{sigh}}....guess no one told the fleas.

summerinbrooklyn, you're not alone.

in the last two years, i've been forced to learn more about vaccinations, medications, commercially sold pet foods, mold exposure, holistic vets -- and autoimmune disease, pet blindness, and cancer -- than i ever wanted to know.

i appreciate your comments here.

Elizabeth, I totally understand where you and many others are coming from. I was the same way, trust me. I happily proudly brought my dog in for her puppy vaccinations. I happily proudly brought her in for her one yr booster shots. She's since developed leash aggression and hyperactive behavior that shouldn't be normal for any dog.

It's not a breed thing. Many people, breeders, the AKC etc etc etc will tell you it's a breed trait. But dogs who obsessively try to catch imaginary flies or run up and down tirelessly or chew through baseboards are not normal. There are obvious mental problems there. It shouldn't be ignored. The diet has helped, and the occasional homeopathic treatment has been working wonders. I used to be able to not train her for too long because she got spazzy. Now I can have hour long training sessions and somedays she's better than others, but on her "on" days, she's happy and eager to work and learn.

There is no scientific studies on homeopathy because modern western science/allopathic medicine has spent an inordinate amount of time discrediting classical homeopathy. And all classical homeopathic practitioners (and few there are in the world) are too scattered and too few to find funding for such an extensive study. Like there is no scientific study that researches the benefits of a 100% raw prey model diet for carnivores. But I see it daily in my girl.

I know of people who had dogs who would run and hide under beds during the 4th fireworks. Then they treat with classical homeopathy, and somehow, their dogs no longer fear loud noises. They claim they've never trained their dogs to try to ignore it. They've always pandered to their dogs hiding under beds because they felt bad and thought that was how their dog wanted to deal, and who were they to take that away from the dog? Dogs don't understand placebo effects. Not the ones that I know anyhow.

There is mounting belief that homeopathy and quantum mechanics are linked. 109 yrs ago, if you mentioned Planck's law as a thought you randomly had, you would have been ridiculed beyond belief.

Repeat vaccinations are not necessary. Immunization from a disease comes from the fact that the body has memory cells that have a picture of a certain pathogen that it has been previously exposed to. These memory cells retain the ability to manufacture antibodies that fight off the pathogens if there is repeated exposure. You don't need to have a consistant exposure to the pathogens, and you don't need to have antibodies circulating constantly within the body. You just need a kick ass immune system with fully functioning memory cells and the ability to manufacture antibodies quickly and efficiently. The last thing you need is an insulted battered immune system that has even started attacking the body's own vital organs (auto immune disease).

summer, can you make a reccomend a holistic vet in Bklyn/Qns/Manhat?

Mason, I hear very good things about Hope Vet in Brooklyn. I am switching our vet to them but our appt isn't til Oct. Nothing against my previous vet, just that we moved out of the area. My old vet is Dr Julie Morris at Animal Healing Arts in Brooklyn. She's very open to rawfeeding (doesn't advocate, doesn't condemn, just says, as long as you are careful and are researched in it, and that she has clients who also feed raw and their pets do very well on it), and also does minimal vaccinations, stretching them out instead of giving the 3-in-1, but will listen if all you want to do is to give the absolute minimum rabies vax. Very reasonable.

The thing about the word holistic is that the real meaning of it means understanding the Whole - meaning it's not just using "natural" products, but also adopting a cleaner lifestyle, thinking about diet with health in mind, and promoting health through the whole lifestyle - not just through healthcare and medications. Unfortunately, it's been coopted by less than credit-worthy people who pretend they know everything, then just slap some poor allergic dog with a bunch of steroids and call it a day.

If you're interested in talking to a true classical homeopath who is also a DVM, there is a Dr. Jeff Feinman who practices in CT. I don't use him, but I know someone who uses him as a classical homeopathic consultant.

dabigdanes - i was not berating summer - i was simply stating my view on the subject, just as she was, and then apologized for my ignorance on the matter.

summer - you know, i really should have thought through my own actions and feelings before i posted - i really did let the frustration with the poor situation with these dogs get the better of me - i used to be on all sorts of medication (for anxiety, depression, add - you name it) they had me on INSANE amounts of drugs - the antipsychotics/antidepressants were making me tired so they upped my adderal - and all this lead to a complete breakdown and now all i take is st. johns wort and 5htp - and i've never felt better. i remember going to a pharmacist (being trained as an american to trust pharmaceuticals) and asking him what supplement i could take that would get the same results as st johns wort because it interfered with birth control, and he told me that i should never take supplements because they haven't been researched like medicines - and i thought "so...i should trust some chemical you brewed in a lab, and not something that's existed for years...on it's own...with no tinkering or outside help? yeah, no thanks, dude." so, in that line of thinking, why do the same thing to my dogs if i'm not going to do it to myself? i really should read up on it and learn more about it because it does seem contradictory.

this might be a stupid question, but what about rabies vaccinations? and what about when they have worms, are there natural remedies to this problem? i'm still wary of all this, but when i get down to it, it does seem wrong. do you have any suggestions as to where i should start? or how to locate a holistic vet?

don't they give a whole bunch of other types of vaccinations when they are spayed or neutered, or just anesthesia and antibiotics? i really could just list a million questions..

and, again, i apologize if i came off as berating you. it really was not what i intended.

summer, thanks I will check these vets out.

Elizabeth, maybe I need a more sociable hobby ;)

Again, I totally understand that my view isn't a particularly popular one, and sometimes all the flak I get stymies me a little, but like I said, I totally understand, and I take 5, and regain my ground, and am determined that I am doing what is right for me and my dog.

I can't give you any advice other than to do your research and start digging around if you're interested. There are a bunch of yahoo groups run by moderators more involved and more knowledgeable than I am. That's where I started. There are books you can borrow or purchase that discuss the dangers of vaccination. Lastly, there are always articles in science journals and regular old news magazines and even financial magazines that talk about things like autism, the link to vaccinations, where the money goes, etc etc etc. The thing about this is that information is EVERYWHERE. Many people just don't bother to look for it.

You can start by first looking at what goes into a vaccine and reading up on adjuvants and how vaccines are derived, how they are administered, how diseases when naturally contracted go through the body, how the body works to counteract it. You can also start by understanding how carnivore physiology is set up to promote digesting raw prey. (And before anything else starts, let's just say that the Smithsonian has reclassified domestic dogs as a subspecies of the gray wolf - canis lupus familiaris, thanks to the genetic mapping of the domestic dog done by Dr. Robert Wayne. Dogs are carnivores.)

The idea behind it all is that parasites are naturally attracted to weak hosts. The stronger and healthier the host is, the better the immune system will be at attacking the parasite to get rid of it. So, say a healthy dog contracts worms. Very often, through no external intervention, the dog is able expel the worms on its own. I've heard of naturally raised dogs who tested positive for heartworm to be tested again 6 mths after, and being heartworm negative. Their owners eschew allopathic heartworm treatment, instead, opting for reduced exercise, keeping up good nutrition, lots of rest and comfort and no topicals. You have to be very careful if there ARE adult heartworms within the dog, but mostly, I don't hear of cases like that.

(Also, there are very specific physical conditions for which heartworm can be contracted. If you are careful, it IS possible to prevent a mosquito from biting your dog.)

Rabies... That's the tricky one yes? By law, we HAVE to be vaccinated against rabies every 3 yrs in NY state. But there are many states that will allow exemptions written from your vet if your dog has had a reaction to a prior vaccination. Some will even allow exemptions from vets out of state. I'm doing whatever I can to get her out of future vaccinations because I firmly believe it's an unnecessary assault on her internal system. The risk of her actually contracting rabies in her lifetime to me is lower than the risk of being chronically ill from overvaccinating and regular use of topical poisons.

Frontline/Advantix/Advantage etc etc etc are all essentially poisons.

well - you have a very valiant method and i respect you very much for it. i'll look into it - thanks for all the info, i'm going to copy and save so that when it feels like i'm chasing my tail (no pun intended) i can go back to the helpful info you have so kindly given.

"There is no scientific studies on homeopathy because modern western science/allopathic medicine has spent an inordinate amount of time discrediting classical homeopathy. And all classical homeopathic practitioners (and few there are in the world) are too scattered and too few to find funding for such an extensive study."

Sorry, summer, but that's simply not true. There have been studies done at universities which show, at best, that the effects of homeopathy are of the placebo variety if they exist at all.

"Other CAM techniques probably don't even merit study. For instance, as I waited to meet Dr. Cai at the George Washington center, I picked up a pamphlet on homeopathy, which, for the uninitiated, is a water-based treatment that uses substances ranging from belladonna and garlic to zinc and ambergris. The catch is that most of these potions are diluted to the point that they're just water---one tenet of homeopathy being that substances somehow become more powerful as they're diluted. No matter that this violates fundamental laws of chemistry. Homeopaths insist that water "remembers" the presence of a substance it once contained and uses it to cure illness. Even proponents have trouble explaining how that's possible. Yet legitimate medical schools like George Washington University continue to promote it, while the NIH wastes money studying it."
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0204.mooney.html

I think your skepticism of western medicine is healthy; I only wish you would apply an equally healthy dose of it towards allopathic practices as well. There are dangers on both ends of the spectrum.

How does the placebo effect apply to animals then?

Not being facetious. Just curious what your thoughts are.

That quote is interesting but still doesn't convince me. It MAY violate all the laws of chemistry. But doesn't quantum physics violate some Newtonian laws of physics as well?

And not everything can be explained in modern science. Life for example. We barely know how the human body functions. The spleen was a mystery for a long time. No one can REALLY tell you how appendicitis happens. They can speculate.

I'm only skeptical of modern western medicine that insist on certain things like vaccinations are safe, when it clearly isn't. I am skeptical when they use modified live viruses administered orally in human polio vaccines, when a Japanese scientist in the 80s discovered a way to use acellular polio vaccines instead of whole cells. Not that I say acellular polio vaccines are any safer to our internal organs, but I'm just saying, I'm skeptical of an industry that insists on using archaic methods of immunization without thought to investigate safer methods because that would be too expensive and would eat into their profits. For this reason alone, I'm going to look into as much as I can and not take things at face value.

With CH, I hear testimonials from both people who have used it on themselves as well as petowners. It's the same for rawfeeding. I actually hold the anecdotal evidence more precious to me because these are live real people I have talked to or emailed. Scientific studies can be skewed and tweaked. Look at the AAFCO standards for determining what is fine to pass off as dogfood. It's embarrassingly insufficient.

Actually, campari, I want to share something with you... I started out really skeptical of CH. I am using it as a last ditch effort to see if it can help my sometimes leash aggressive dog. I tried training, I tried thinking she will grow out of it. All that stuff. Nothing.

So as a last ditch, I started researching CH, and the more I read about it, the more confused I got. It SORT of makes sense, but it's hard to trust something that didn't seem to have any real science backing it. I'm not necessarily one to believe for the sake of believing.

But I also read that if done right, it can do no harm. In fact, that's one of the basic tenets of CH - to do no harm. So I thought, let's contact one of the CHs for Summer and talk.

After a consult (which was actually not expensive at all!), I dosed a very dilute remedy for Summer. The first few days, I saw incredible improvement. She's still on the road to improvement. I have to dose her continually over time, but I see improvement more and more. She went from spazzy dog to a CGC in a span of two months. My trainer is amazed at the transformation. She used to bark and howl when agitated, and while it wasn't sustained behavior, just the slightest things would trigger it off. Now, she's alert and able to focus, and I'm teaching her a new trick every two weeks or so. Plus new obedience behaviors. She can go down on recall. She can heel off leash. She can sustain a stay despite a rally of dogs jumping around her. This morning she was in the middle of a play wrestle session with two other dogs ((one of whom is her BFF), and the session looked like it could get gnarly. I called her off, and she recalled to me instantly. Remember, this was Spazzy Mallie before. I'm still amazed.

summer, the placebo effect, or whatever you want to call what you're witnessing in your dog, may have more to do with the other things you're doing and/or your own hopeful attitude that your dog is certainly picking up on. Because there is no control group to balance your anecdotal results, there's no way to rationally attribute them to homeopathy.

"But I also read that if done right, it can do no harm. In fact, that's one of the basic tenets of CH - to do no harm."

Since homeopathic substances are, for all intents and purposes, just water, I'm sure they are perfectly safe -- they are snake oil, but at least they're safe snake oil, unlike colloidial silver, for instance.

"But doesn't quantum physics violate some Newtonian laws of physics as well?"

Getting into physics, no, not anymore than non-Euclidian geometry violates Euclidian geometry. Different laws apply at the subatomic level. They may be different but they do adhere to laws and demonstrable results can be replicated in controlled experiments. The same cannot be said for homeopathy. It simply has no scientific basis whatsoever.

''Science'' itself is really just an educated guess extracted from the most probable behavior. Saying something has scientific basis merely means it has a testable and falsifiable hypothesis. But even under that definition. there is still the possibility of an event outside of the ''norm'' as defined by the probability distribution of that event.

So saying something has ''scientific basis'' is simply a fancy way of saying ''according to the studies that we as humans are capable of doing based on the knowledge we currently have, this is how something should or shouldn't happen."

Scientific basis is not an absolute, but an educated guess.

Holistic Science and Homeopathy have been around long before traditional medicine, and continues to survive as a strong piece in the lives of billions of people, they call ''western medicine'' exactly that for a reason.

One can almost look at religion as a parallel to this discussion. There is no proof that god exists, yet billions of people flock to religions for guidance and purpose in their life. How strange that even ''science'' has determined that people of religion live longer, and generally have happier lives.

Oh and Subatomic Particles......lol! Prove that a photon exists, go ahead, try. A photon has no mass, yet we use the term as if it is a real thing. It exists as a concept in the minds of scientists.

Oh, and for disclosure sake, I don't believe in god, I do use a combo of western and holistic medicine on myself and my dogs, and my Dad is the smartest guy in the world. ::VBG::

DaBigDanes, there is an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster, which created the entire universe after drinking heavily. All evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in an effort to test Pastafarians' faith; a form of the Omphalos hypothesis. When scientific measurements, such as radiocarbon dating, are made, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.

The Pastafarian belief of heaven stresses that it contains beer volcanoes and a stripper factory. Hell is similar, except that the beer is stale and the strippers have VD.

Prove me wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

campari, I like that theory way too much to even TRY to prove it wrong! LOL!

Our two cats had a bad case of fleas. Our oldest was miserable. The little girl wasn't purring as much. Solution: Advantage. Fleas? Gone.

Remember when garlic added to pet food was supposed to keep the fleas away? Apparently, no one told California fleas. IMHO, homeopathic remedies for fleas are most effective after the fleas are killed by Advantage then the other is used to make the human counterpart feel good.

Wow ....fleas...i still have nightmares of when my cat tracked it in...sorry I'm all for green products but Frontline will win out, and if needed Bayticol diluted in a bucket of water to mop the floors with. Last resort...fumigation

Regarding vaccinations: I have my dogs blood 'tidered.' what that means is they check to see if the vaccine is still effective. It's been years since he's been vaccinated for rabies, at least 6 years, and the vaccine is still working. This test is very expensive, almost $200, but I can afford the peace of mind.

I got fleas last summer, well my kitty did and then my carpet did. She had so many fleas, she got two flea baths from the groomers, and I think she was anemic.

I took her to the vet, she got a flea medicine to put on the back of her neck, and I combed her for weeks getting them all out.

As far as my place, bombing DID NOT work. I tried three kinds. Vacuuming DID NOT work either. Borax DID NOT work.

Here is what did work: pans of water with a little dish soap mixed in to reduce surface tension. Then I put a well secured lamp next to the pan, lamp pointing down into the water. The fleas were attracted to the heat and light of the lamp, jump in the water and then drown.

IT WORKS! And its more natural and safer than bombs.

Wow, nightwind, that sounds pretty cool. Fortunately, we don't have an infestation bc we got to them with the Advantage. But I'll keep your suggestion in mind if there is a next time.

Frontline all the way for us. We tried natural remedies like brewer's yeast, garlic, herbal oils, spreading diatomaceous earth all over the apt., vacuuming daily, flea combing daily. End result: flea explosion, cats with worms (wormy-butts my husband called them) and anemia. We tried a homeopathic de-wormer - didn't work. Had to spend the $30 for a bottle of praziquantel.

And dogs may not need veggies, but my two love their cherry tomatoes.

Titers only measure the level of antibodies in the blood, antibodies are only released when some sort of exposure has happened with the virus or bacteria.

A titer test showing low levels of antibodies does not mean that a booster is necessary, it merely means that the animal has not been exposed.

Just to get you doubters thinking - I have 4 dogs, all rescues, ages 2, 7, 9, 11. With the exception of 1 dog, I adopted all of them around the age of 1 year old.

The 11 year-old used to suffer from seizures which amazingly occurred after vaccinations, heartworm meds, or flea treatments. She's been seizure free for over 5 years and does not receive any vaccinations, heartworm meds, or flea poisons nor do any of my other dogs. This dog also had severe allergies and I spent a fortune on treatments at the vet which did absolutely no good. She had allergy tests (very expensive) and series after series of treatments. She no longer has any allergies but this happened only AFTER I stopped poisoning her system.

All 4 dogs are tested each spring ($20 per dog) for heartworms, all remain negative and have for years.

The 9 year old suffered a torn knee ligament and received acupuncture instead of surgery and is absolutely fine 2 years later. I located a holistic vet who further convinced me the surgery wasn't needed. She was right. My neighbors spent $2500.00 for surgery for their dog for the exact same reason and their dog still limps...mine doesn't.

All 4 dogs are dining on healthy holistic food which they eat with a tablespoon of plain yogurt.

Yearly vaccines are nothing but poison and are totally NOT necessary. Same goes for the heartworm meds & the flea treatments. It's all POISON that people have been conditioned to believe means "doing the right thing" for their pet. Your vet recommends it, your friends use it on their pets and yada yada yada.

It has taken me a very long time to reach these conclusions regarding dogs. I've owned dogs for almost 37 years and am just now understanding what they really need.

I use a natural shampoo & spray which contains NEEM to control fleas and it works great.

My dogs are VERY healthy and I believe it's mainly due to the fact that they eat holistic food and are NOT poisoned by all those products people seem to think a dog needs.

I seem to finally be getting more savvy....and my dogs thank me for it!

isn't it more green to just give your dog one little squirt of frontline (which is very safe) ONCE a month and never have to deal with fleas...than to vacuum (wasting electricity) everyday trying to what...vacuum the fleas to death...and then eventually be forced to bomb the whole house because your carpets and furniture are infested? (in my opinion more humane to your pets who can't make decisions for themselves)


also summerinbrooklyn should know that there are MANYMANY times more DOCUMENTED cases of rabies in the new york area alone than there are of horrible disease (fibrosarcomas) due to vaccination in the entire WORLD.

And fyi licensed veterinarians give the rabies vaccinations on the right hind leg for that very reason...to be safe since there were published papers linking the disease and the adjuvant in rabies... so if an animal gets fibrosarcoma on the right hind leg it can be reported and linked to the vaccine and also the limb can be amputated if need be saving the animal's life. However, at the large veterinary practice i work at we have never seen this happen.

PS dogs are not carnivores like cats, they are omnivores like us ;)

*If you are questioning vaccines don't get your information from strangers on the internet, no matter how much research they have done. Go talk to your veterinarian and have them explain the real pros and cons, and LEGAL consequences.